List of Suggestions

Discussions regarding the development of Morrowind Crafting 3.0 (Tamriel Rebuilt edition)

List of Suggestions

Postby Huskobar » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:37 pm

Here is my list of top suggestions. You already have the breakdown I PM'd, but as requested here is a point-form listing posted here for all to see.

- BOOKS
I'm glad to see you're considering adding books because with literally hundreds of items to craft, it's virtually impossible to keep in mind (or on paper or switching out of game to the help file) the relative difficulties and resources required for each project. I suggest scattering them among crafters (not just booksellers) to provide a bit of a quest in obtaining them.

- TIME PASSAGE
Make time pass for all activities. Vary time passage according to the difficulty of the task (e.g. it would take longer to craft a cuirass than to sew some common pants).

-CHOPPING
Ability to gather wood as per mineral ore. Extend availablity across many landmass mods and Solstheim. (I suggest the method of 'Filching' which allows one to obtain wood without felling/killing a tree).

- REEXAMINE HIGH-DIFFICULTY LEVELS
From what I can tell (both in-game and looking at scripts), it appears that the highest level one can train to is 100. In the Crafting (Handcrafting) discipline, Grandmaster equipment is at difficulty levels well above 100 meaning they could never be made. (Right?)

- MAKE JEWELLERY (JEWELRY) A SEPARATE DISCIPLINE
..in addition to adding amulets. This would a.) remove one category from the overweighted Crafting (Handcrafting) discipline and b.) make the activator consistent with others (fletching kit, sewing kit, woodworking chest...) which each trigger their own discipline.

- OVERHAUL FLETCHING
Make batch outputs smaller so the skill trains faster. Perhaps add Fletching as a skill check for the ease with which missiles are poisoned. Perhaps reduce world loot. With literally tens of thousands of missiles available through loot and merchants, there's little incentive to train Fletching.

- OVERHAUL DIFFICULTIES
A total overhaul has to be considered. Difficulty should be based on:

a.) practical use of the result
b.) monetary value of the result
c.) amount of materials needed
d.) diversity of materials needed
e.) rarity and/or expense of materials needed
f.) intensity of labor

There also has to be smooth progression from one difficulty level to the next with opportunity to use any kind of resource at close to that level.
For example, it's easy to get 'stuck' making small hickory chests with all your available hickory. While one or two hickory bookshelves might be desireable, there's not much incentive to make hickory bookshelves when small chests are relatively more valuable to sell, train to a higher level and by using fewer logs, train many more 'steps' per number of logs used.

- TWO FIRES
I never understood why you could make two different fires which each did the same thing. Furthermore, diversity could be added by spanning different menus over two fires, one say primarily for cooking while the other could be more utilitarian for things like threshing and rendering.

- RESOURCE SOURCES
Depending on what MC uses, where does salt come from? Where does sugar come from? Lard? Starch? Straw? Gold? Adamantium ingots? Soul gem crystals? blah blah.

- WATER PLANTS
I'd say leave them. I like sausage pods and kelp bladders. As for encroaching on landscape-altering mods, what mods DON'T alter the landscape. Quite a few do.

- ADDITIONAL STEPS
Yes, and quite a few could be proposed here. I thought of the making of yarn which could go into loom projects, the making of dyes which could go into coloring objects such as jewelry, candle wax, and maybe thread, the rendering of wood to make charcoal which would be used to make steel ingots, the rendering of animals fats to make lard, oils, waxes, and tallows, wooden shafts for use in making certain weapons and tools, whatever.

- POISONING EXTENSION
..to include a wider range of missiles such as throwing knives and those introduced by other mods, such as throwing discs, axes, and javelins in Wizards Islands.

- EXTENSIONS BEYOND TAMRIEL REBUILT
TR is undoubtedly one of the most 'important' projects out there, but don't forget about Silgrad Tower, Wizards Islands, White Wolf, Sea of Destiny, Ald Vendras, Dulsya Isle, Havish, Korobal Island, Five Keys of Azura, and the many Expandeds out there.

- MAGIC MINING CARTS
Yecch. Sorry.



Crap. I accidentally just hit the Backspace button in my browser and got sent back to the login page losing 2 hours of work on this post. That'll learn me. If I remember any other major suggestions I'll post them later, but I'm sure this is plenty enough for now.
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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby Drac » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:16 am

Here is my list of top suggestions. You already have the breakdown I PM'd, but as requested here is a point-form listing posted here for all to see.

- BOOKS
I'm glad to see you're considering adding books because with literally hundreds of items to craft, it's virtually impossible to keep in mind (or on paper or switching out of game to the help file) the relative difficulties and resources required for each project. I suggest scattering them among crafters (not just booksellers) to provide a bit of a quest in obtaining them.


Yes, we do plan books... the actual list of books is a bit up in the air yet, but they'll likely be a number of them, and scattered about here and there; some purchasable, some findable, and so forth.

- TIME PASSAGE
Make time pass for all activities. Vary time passage according to the difficulty of the task (e.g. it would take longer to craft a cuirass than to sew some common pants).


This one is questionable, as manipulating the Timescale would have no effect; I suppose it might be possible to force the gamehour, but that might make some of the scripts a bit unmanageable (since if gamehour goes past 24, you have to force it to the next day and fiddle with the gamehour some more, etc).

-CHOPPING
Ability to gather wood as per mineral ore. Extend availablity across many landmass mods and Solstheim. (I suggest the method of 'Filching' which allows one to obtain wood without felling/killing a tree).


We've discussed this... it may be an add-on after Morrowind Crafting 3 is out, similar to equipment replacers and the like. Still up in the air; at a minimu, it'd require tree-replacers, and that could *seriously* mess with other mods and possibly some in-game scripts.

- REEXAMINE HIGH-DIFFICULTY LEVELS
From what I can tell (both in-game and looking at scripts), it appears that the highest level one can train to is 100. In the Crafting (Handcrafting) discipline, Grandmaster equipment is at difficulty levels well above 100 meaning they could never be made. (Right?)


Actually, no. If you do your due-diligence research & examine the way things work, you'll find that there are indeed ways to make the very high-level items. It's just hard... but then, making a Daedric Daikatana should be hard, shouldn't it? Possibly with several failures for each success. However, I'll admit that there is a way to fairly reliably make even the highest-difficulty items. It just takes some thought. :D

- MAKE JEWELLERY (JEWELRY) A SEPARATE DISCIPLINE
..in addition to adding amulets. This would a.) remove one category from the overweighted Crafting (Handcrafting) discipline and b.) make the activator consistent with others (fletching kit, sewing kit, woodworking chest...) which each trigger their own discipline.


Possibly, but jewelry doesn't have enough items to make a separate skill. A skill that can make just a few things isn't really attractive, is it?

- OVERHAUL FLETCHING
Make batch outputs smaller so the skill trains faster. Perhaps add Fletching as a skill check for the ease with which missiles are poisoned. Perhaps reduce world loot. With literally tens of thousands of missiles available through loot and merchants, there's little incentive to train Fletching.


Well, since in MC 3.0 we're adding all the way through Daedric arrows and so forth, there should be a bit more incentive. There may be a few surprises in store, as well (or might not ;) )

- OVERHAUL DIFFICULTIES
A total overhaul has to be considered. Difficulty should be based on:

a.) practical use of the result
b.) monetary value of the result
c.) amount of materials needed
d.) diversity of materials needed
e.) rarity and/or expense of materials needed
f.) intensity of labor

There also has to be smooth progression from one difficulty level to the next with opportunity to use any kind of resource at close to that level.
For example, it's easy to get 'stuck' making small hickory chests with all your available hickory. While one or two hickory bookshelves might be desireable, there's not much incentive to make hickory bookshelves when small chests are relatively more valuable to sell, train to a higher level and by using fewer logs, train many more 'steps' per number of logs used.


Congratulations, you've noticed one of the more interesting built-in tricks! :D

- TWO FIRES
I never understood why you could make two different fires which each did the same thing. Furthermore, diversity could be added by spanning different menus over two fires, one say primarily for cooking while the other could be more utilitarian for things like threshing and rendering.


Well, think about it... you wouldn't use the same sort of fire while camping that you would in a forge, would you? Or a fireplace? However, to encompass different player-styles, we made the fires usable for whatever you wanted do do that *involved* fire.

- RESOURCE SOURCES
Depending on what MC uses, where does salt come from? Where does sugar come from? Lard? Starch? Straw? Gold? Adamantium ingots? Soul gem crystals? blah blah.


Hmmm, salt? I have yet to see salt in the game, really. However... sugar comes from Marshmerrow... that's a hint, of course. And kanet butter's name gives a hint as to how it's made, as well. Starch, rice flour, what flour, rye flour all have names that contain hints. Adamantium ingots? Have you noticed that deep under Mournhold, there are these rocks with chunbks of Adamantium ore sticking out of them...

- WATER PLANTS
I'd say leave them. I like sausage pods and kelp bladders. As for encroaching on landscape-altering mods, what mods DON'T alter the landscape. Quite a few do.


Yes, they do. But when some other mod removed plants that MC is expecting to be there, things break. Don't worry, we still have the pods, and bladders simply come from a slightly different source now.

- ADDITIONAL STEPS
Yes, and quite a few could be proposed here. I thought of the making of yarn which could go into loom projects, the making of dyes which could go into coloring objects such as jewelry, candle wax, and maybe thread, the rendering of wood to make charcoal which would be used to make steel ingots, the rendering of animals fats to make lard, oils, waxes, and tallows, wooden shafts for use in making certain weapons and tools, whatever.


Yarn... well, how about homespun thread/yarn, that you wind on these spools, which MC also happens to allow you to make? And yes, we've discussed oils, rendering fats, making intermediate items to build other items... as to charcoal... it's a thought. We'll discuss it among ourselves. In any event, I think you'll like some of what's planned (and part of which is already working)

- POISONING EXTENSION
..to include a wider range of missiles such as throwing knives and those introduced by other mods, such as throwing discs, axes, and javelins in Wizards Islands.


As to including new weapons from other mods... that would create a dependency on those mods (like requiring Bloodmoon, Trbunal, and the Tamriel Rebuit mod(s) ). We'd love to include things from all over the place, but... we're not willing to force players to have every mod there is, in order to use MC 3. After all, we can't just snatch meshes from other mods... there's an unpleasant name for that.

- EXTENSIONS BEYOND TAMRIEL REBUILT
TR is undoubtedly one of the most 'important' projects out there, but don't forget about Silgrad Tower, Wizards Islands, White Wolf, Sea of Destiny, Ald Vendras, Dulsya Isle, Havish, Korobal Island, Five Keys of Azura, and the many Expandeds out there.


There are problems with some of these; Silgrad Tower (which I deeply enjoyed) supposedly is going to be incompatible with Tamriel Rebuit. And since TR is a requirement for MC 3.0... well. The same applies to a number of other mods. While it might be possible for people to make 'compatibility mods' for some of those, it just isn't within the scope of MC 3.0 to do so. Maybe later on, time will tell. And we can't "borrow" things from those mods... see "nasty name" above. However, as I said, a sort of intermediary mod might be possible later.

Who knows, maybe I've misspoken somewhere :D

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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby Toccatta » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:22 pm

Drac wrote:
- REEXAMINE HIGH-DIFFICULTY LEVELS
From what I can tell (both in-game and looking at scripts), it appears that the highest level one can train to is 100. In the Crafting (Handcrafting) discipline, Grandmaster equipment is at difficulty levels well above 100 meaning they could never be made. (Right?)


Actually, no. If you do your due-diligence research & examine the way things work, you'll find that there are indeed ways to make the very high-level items. It's just hard... but then, making a Daedric Daikatana should be hard, shouldn't it? Possibly with several failures for each success. However, I'll admit that there is a way to fairly reliably make even the highest-difficulty items. It just takes some thought. :D


One other thing to consider is this: We've made every attempt to ensure that MC skills operate as much like original Morrowind skills as it's possible to manage. Currently, the Morrowind Code Patch allows for attribute and skill uncapping, and to ensure that MC skills continue to operate as much like Morrowind skills as possible, MC 3.0 will also allow for the possibility of skill uncapping. With effort (and how much effort depends on various settings that you'll be able to configure), you can get your level in various skills to unprecedented values. Imagine how much ore you can get from an ebony rock with a mining skill of 300...

As Drac already pointed out, but which I'm going to mention again, just because the difficulty of a task exceeds 100, doesn't mean that it's impossible to perform, even if you keep the skills capped. The system was designed so that a person with average luck would successfully complete a task of a difficulty which exactly matches their skill level about half the time. If a task has a difficulty higher than your skill, you succeed less often. So even a task with a difficulty of 135 is within reach of a master crafter/smith... they just don't succeed every time. And don't forget that improving your luck (either permanently through the leveling process, or temporarily with a spell or potion) will increase the chance to succeed.

I have no intention of including artificially created time passage. The only three examples of "crafting" in the original game are alchemy, armorer, and enchanting. Enchanting is always done one soulgem at a time, but the other two can be done in batches. You could create 1000 potions or repair an entire inventory full of armor in an instant in the base game. This is just how those skills work. Artificially passing time while crafting is in direct conflict with our attempt to ensure that the MC "pseudo-skills" function as closely as possible to the original skills. That isn't to say that someone might not make a mod to cause time to pass while brewing potions - and if they do, they're welcome to make a patch to MC to pass time while crafting. But I have no plans to include it here.

As to the water plants, the problem isn't with mods which alter the landscape so much as ones that alter the water line. When someone creates a mod which raises the land out of the water, they invariably delete the water plants that had been in that area. When the plants are deleted and MC tries to replace those statics with containers that can be harvested, there's a rather nasty problem... and we're talking about the kind of problem that can send the game crashing back to the desktop. I don't enjoy having my mod associated with that kind of ugly failure, regardless of how many people like sausage pods. And as Drac already mentioned, the pods and the bladders aren't going away, they're just being relocated to new sources that DON'T cause CTD for people with mods that change the waterline. Rest assured you'll still be able to use sausage pods and bladders. You just won't be able to collect them from water plants.

Increasing the poisoning options has an almost geometric progression in the amount of objects that need to be created, which leads to serious bloat. I've planned for one additional poison and to include missiles added by TR to the existing poison possibilities for all the available poisons. I don't currently have any plans to expand on that, but I've included things before that I hadn't planned to, so we'll see.
"All that is gold does not glitter; not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not wither; deep roots are not reached by the frost."
- Bilbo Baggins
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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby Huskobar » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:34 pm

-FIRES
Well, think about it... you wouldn't use the same sort of fire while camping that you would in a forge, would you? Or a fireplace?

I guess that's what I'm saying - fires could perhaps be differentiated more.

- TIME PASSAGE
I'm not going to argue it. I'll just point out that Advanced Alchemy does a bang-up job of time passage for potion making. That just leaves repairs as the only signifigant skill in my 'Morrowind Amalgamated' that's not in real time. I've added simple gamehour passage to all other skills which somewhat emulates real life and adds an added degree of challenge in time management.

- RESOURCE SOURCES
Here I'm just saying to check that all primary resources needed in projects have an in-game source, such as you're proposing for potatoes, garlic, and onions. So for jewelry, perhaps use gold ingots (rather than gold coins) and add gold ore and the ability to smelt it. I honestly can't remember if you provide for the crafting of adamantium armor/weapons, but if so perhaps that ore in Mournhold could be smelted as well.
I apologize that some of my references might blend with NOM as it shares with MC in the cooking department.

- EXTENSIONS
we can't just snatch meshes from other mods

I was thinking in terms of patches, but I know that would be a massive undertaking for whomever.

- CLAY/SAND BANKS
Oh, and I did forget something. I don't know if this is deliberate or a bug (or a consequence of something I've done), but I've noticed the banks often activate more than once in the same session. i.e., you gather material until the bank gets 'fouled' then activating it again allows another round of material gathering, and this can happen several times in a row.

Thanks for your replies!
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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby Toccatta » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:20 pm

Huskobar wrote:- RESOURCE SOURCES
Here I'm just saying to check that all primary resources needed in projects have an in-game source, such as you're proposing for potatoes, garlic, and onions. So for jewelry, perhaps use gold ingots (rather than gold coins) and add gold ore and the ability to smelt it. I honestly can't remember if you provide for the crafting of adamantium armor/weapons, but if so perhaps that ore in Mournhold could be smelted as well.


I hadn't considered smelting of gold ore, but I'll look into it. One of the problems with using gold ingots for jewelry has to do with material requirements and the impossibility of fractional material usage. We already have a certain number of complaints that crafting isn't profitable enough, and if I make it so that the material requirements for jewelry exceed the value of the end result, then how would I justify that? By using actual gold coins, I can carefully limit the expense of the materials. Using ingots (unless each ingot was made from a single gold coin) would complicate that issue greatly. Raw gold has a value of 250 gold, so if I convert that into ingots, I have to basically divide that value by the number of ingots created in order to get the value of each ingot. Unless I make it a ridiculous amount of ingots, each one will be very valuable. Now consider that for exquisite rings, the components NOT counting the gold, already often meet or exceed the value of the finished product (again - can't remove half a piece of ebony or 1/3 of a fire salt) and adding in expensive gold ingots would completely ruin the economy of jewelry making. I can see a possibility of smelting gold ore, but figuring out how to incorporate gold ingots into jewelry making isn't something I can wrap my head around. Using it for decoration in armor is even more problematic, especially if you knew how ductile gold is and how little gold is required to make actual gold leaf. A single ingot of gold could color an amazing number of Imperial Templar suits of armor (which is why the recipe currently only calls for a single gold piece).

If I end up smelting gold, it would most likely be to just convert it straight to gold coins - although the Empire might consider that counterfeiting...

As to the adamantium, yes we do allow crafting of adamantium armor and weapons... and yes, the smelting of adamantium ore into refined ingots is one of the steps that has already been finished.

As to the sand and clay banks, I've not seen that particular error, but I'll look into what might be causing it. Currently, when a bank is fouled for whatever reason, a replacement bank is created and the original bank is entirely removed, so it shouldn't be possible to reactivate the good one (and the bad one doesn't even have the collecting script on it). Sounds like you have may a problem with doubling, which might be caused by a dirty save rather than a problem with the mod, but I'll double check to be on the safe side. To help me try to track down the problem, let me ask this: When you see this problem, does it ever occur the FIRST time a bank fouls, or is it something that only happens later, when the clean bank respawns? Basically, the problem could be in the script on the clean bank, or it could be caused by the fouled bank respawning the replacement incorrectly. Knowing when the problem occurs will help figure out which script might be the culprit.

As to the fires, they look different solely to assist with role-playing. It's intended to be strictly a cosmetic difference. It would be inappropriate to put a campfire (complete with the ring of stones) into a fireplace, and a standard fireplace fire would look odd outdoors. However, fire is fire, so there's no logical reason why it wouldn't be possible to perform the same tasks at a campfire as it would at a fireplace. Oh.. a minor note: there are already plans to split out a few of the cooking tasks that really don't have anything to do with fires. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the player into cooking mode for tasks which are obviously not fire-based (like making sandwiches, salads, or threshing/grinding grain).

[edit] By the way, when I say I don't know how I could do something, it doesn't mean that it can't be done or that I won't consider doing it. It means literally, "I don't know how". If you have ideas on how something could be done, let's hear them. I'm open to suggestions. If you can figure a way to smelt gold ore into ingots and make it still economically feasible to craft jewelry with them, I'll consider it. But right now, I'm kind of overwhelmed with what's already been planned, and trying to devise ways of redesigning what already works (especially when I don't particularly consider it broken) takes time away from higher priority tasks. Don't take that to mean that I consider your suggestions low priority - but tweaking an existing (working) process takes lower priority over adding in new ones. Once the new functions are in place, I can take a look at tweaking some of the already existing ones to work better or be more role-play friendly.
"All that is gold does not glitter; not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not wither; deep roots are not reached by the frost."
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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby Huskobar » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:13 pm

CLAY/SAND BANKS
I have only started about 3 games where banks have been activated afresh so it's hard to be definite about when it occurs but it seems to me that it's after the first activation. I have a habit of tweaking mods in the course of a savegame. In a couple of earlier playthroughs, I'd have attributed the hitch to doubling but the last time I was surprised to see it occur again. Tweaks were very minor and no refs were touched. I'll give it closer scrutiny next time to see if it repeats.

As for the metals, I can understand your point of view.

And thanks for your disclaimer at the end, but don't knock yourself out. These are merely suggestions. If you like any, use them; if you don't, don't. I can appreciate that your plate is full.
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Re: List of Suggestions

Postby stillcrazygreggy » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:32 pm

Thanks from a long time user of MC . I would like to suggest Wood Stacks or Piles as an alternative to an earlier suggestion - Chopping down existing trees . These could be set to respawn at appropriate intervals , some being free to use ( driftwood along coastal and riverine areas , refuse stacks near ports to clear dangerous floating debris , town shared stacks for fire wood )and some being owned ( by vendors and trainers ) . Activating one would result in gaining a number of workable logs of specific wood and some scrap wood . They could also be placed at the locations of major Ashlander encampments ( for ash wood ) , towns ( for oak , mahogany , etc ) and near to wood vendors Foreign woods ) . I'm suggesting this because the degree of deforestation tree chopping produced in Morrowind Complete turned out to be too distracting for this player as well as making things awkward for tree replacer mods and even though the earlier suggestion did consider this, it seems that this could be just as viable a method of procuring workable lumber . Cheers all .
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